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Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

Is there a reason why theologians write like that? They even do it when they're writing for ordinary people.

If you don't know what I mean, grab a theology book and see how often you read:
- dense nounification of verbs like "the becoming", "being", "othering", "being the Church", etc,
- adjectives that sound like the product of Greek classes like "salvific", "pneumatological",
- Older English terms in the middle of sentences like "the mire", "despond", "thou".

I'm used to academic waffle but theology, which talks about God who deliberately went out of the way to be understood and to talk in words everyone, even the uneducated could understand, should maybe set the example for clarity and concreteness.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch

I think it's more academia in general than theology specifically.

During my sadly abortive tenure as a Humanities grad student, I got pretty sick of reading "foo qua foo" and "rôle" in academic articles. Lots of silly "ain't I smart?" filler words like that.

At least "X qua X" has some philosophical and historical backing, even though it is just as easy to say "as" as "qua," and doesn't convey any less meaning.
I could never find the origin of the custom of using "rôle," and it's literally just the French word for "role."

Obnoxious. 🤦‍♂️

royal

@CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch I really wonder whether the point is not to obscure, so that one's own sloppy thought may not be detected.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@royal @multilingualchurch

Well, I'd call it puffery before I'd call it obfuscation, but in many cases, it wouldn't surprise me.

The thing is, the mind can adapt to such language to the point that it becomes natural.

*cough* Hegel *cough*

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal Have you read Habermas?

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal
I have not. What are they like?

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal Apparently Jürgen Habermas wrote lots of deep and meaningful writings. I have tried to read some. It flew over my head higher than a Chinese "weather balloon".

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Ah, I thought you might have been referring to Gary Habermas ^___^

Any idea where I could get started on Jürgen? I love a challenge ^__^

Edit: I keep forgetting that I have to backslash escape caret symbols in my favorite emoticon when using Markdown. :/

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal Try "Democracy and the Public Sphere" and "Truth and Justification".

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Sounds like a good excuse for a day visit to my University Library that I've been longing to do for a couple years now.

I so miss Uni. 😢 (Only undergrad, though)

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal I'm near our National Library. Once you learn the system, everything opens up.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

You mean the library system? Like how the stacks are organized?

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal You don't get to see the stacks there. I was thinking more about how to put in a reservation, how to find related books and when book drops happen as it's reference only.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Oh man, I couldn't deal with a hidden-stacks library. It's just not the same. There's something so soothing about walking the stacks and laying hands on a random book.

Both of my parents were professors, and I grew up spending a lot of time on campus (and specifically at the huge Perry-Castañeda Library) at UT Austin.

Big libraries always feel like home to me. More so than home, haha. ^___^

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal In the case of the National Library of Scotland, it's because they are a legal deposit library so if it was published in Scotland, they have a copy. A big chunk of their books are one of a few left in the world. Borrowing is forbidden but, if they happen to not have a book, they have ways of getting a copy.

I do love stack browsing too though. Looking forward to my uni library letting alumni back in.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal I like physical books. I love putting in my order and then getting them from the desk in the reading room.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Yes, there's no really good replacement for a physical book.

eBooks during the era of got close, but now they're more abstract than ever. Not the same feel, by a long shot.

Joe
Public

@multilingualchurch @CharismaticBatman @royal Exactly. So Jesus told parables that are understandable to ordinary people, yet profound in the number of different layers they contain. Would Jesus feel at home in a modern day seminary?

Charismatic Batman
Public

@JoeCool @multilingualchurch @royal

I'm conflicted about that question. On the one hand, Jesus could slice and dice theology with the best of them. On the other hand, too much of theology is about putting God in a comfortable box, so that the soul doesn't have to live in the state of constantly gazing at unapproachable light, unspeakable beauty, and unfathomable power.

I'm not saying that my faith is on solid footing all of the time or anything like that, but for me, I'd much, much, much rather be Mary of Bethany sitting at his feet than Gamaliel and Nicodemus debating theology, although I like that too.

Joe
Public

@CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch @royal Yes, I'm with you there. Another question: who was closer to the Kingdom of God: Nicodemus or Mary of Bethany?

royal
Public

@JoeCool @CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch Hm. Was Nicodemus debating theology, or was Nicodemus seeking understanding? The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but they're not the same either.

Joe
Public

@royal @CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch Why did Nicodemus go visit Jesus late that night? To understand. You cannot enter the Kingdom of God without understanding. I fear that may theologians have debated theology and mistaken this for 'understanding'.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@JoeCool @royal @multilingualchurch

Given that Nicodemus donated a large amount of expensive spices for Jesus' burial, I'd like to think that he was in faith, and that he really did want to understand Jesus in John 3.

Joe
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal @multilingualchurch A theologian who wasn't 'in faith' wouldn't have bothered to meet with Jesus in the middle of the night.

Joe
Public

@CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch @royal Interesting observations. Perhaps the answers are in Jesus' parables "The Kingdom of God is like..." BUT to say that Nicodemus had 'more to surrender' doesn't wash with me. With Jesus there are no excuses -- the rich young ruler and the early-in-the-day vineyard workers have no more excuses than the leper or the beggar. Should I measure the cost of following Jesus by the world's standards?

Joe
Public

@CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch @royal By the world's standards it doesn't seem fair, but that's the whole point isn't it? Are we to use 'the World's standards' in any of this discussion? I have to give up my life in order to save it! It isn't easy.

Joe
Public

@CharismaticBatman @multilingualchurch @royal note the word 'closer' -- this question wasn't intended to bash Nicodemus but to point out that Mary probably had fewer impediments to understanding the Kingdom of God than Nicodemus.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@royal @CharismaticBatman That is rather negative. It seems to do with what we reward people for.

royal
Public

@multilingualchurch @CharismaticBatman Yes, a little too cynical. It probably does have to do with incentives. I'm favorable toward the view that "if you can't explain your topic in plain language, you don't really understand it." Yet plain language might be discouraged by journal publishers, etc. I'm just on the edges of this world, so the incentives may well be lie elsewhere.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@royal @CharismaticBatman I'm blessed to be in a fairly new discipline but even there we have just enough philosophy and sociology stuff to be dangerous. Perhaps it's asking too much to call for stylistic rebellion but certainly adopting clear language standards can help.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch

There's muddy stream between the river of philosophy and the bog of sophistry. Some people get stuck in it. 😅

@royal Plain language isn't always easy to get to. Think of the most nuanced topic that you are both knowledgeable and passionate about. Then imagine trying to explain it to someone who doesn't know and doesn't care. It's not easy 😁

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Also, there's a fine like between art and artifice. Some, in striving to bring out th greatest artistic value in whatever they are writing, may transgress into artifice for it's own sake, losing sight of the goal of communication and persuasion.

It's easy to do.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal For me, artistic writing is writing that is clear and meaningful.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal Explaining what we're passionate about should make it easier to explain.

Charismatic Batman
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@multilingualchurch @royal

I dunno, I think about trying to explain FOSS, Unix, and privacy to someone like my sister, who doesn't care about any of those things. It's difficult to do.

On the other hand, explaining the Gospel feels super easy, like He's explaining Himself through you.

Except with family members, for some reason. I always get super tongue-tied.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal I wrote an email to my MP today explaining why insisting on a backdoor in end-to-end encryption is a horrible idea. 😏

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

Fantastic. I hope they listen. I live in Texas, so I'm not going to bother writing to the lizard that represents me. :/

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal The hard thing to explain is that a backdoor for the government is a backdoor for bad people too.

Charismatic Batman
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@multilingualchurch @royal

Exactly. There's no way to control backdoors. Once it's open, it's open. It's a dumb idea technically, and ethically wrong.

Dr Jonathan Downie
Public

@CharismaticBatman @royal There's using a hammer to crack a nut but that idea is chopping everyone's hands off to stop a few thieves.

Charismatic Batman
Public

@multilingualchurch @royal

There's no sugar coating the real motive behind these bills: control. Total surveillance and control.